At the Fish Houses = Bishop

 Elizabeth Bishop:  The Fish Houses-- References from Seamus Heaney

Me to Jessica:

I know you were interested in what Seamus Heaney had to say in his essay "The Government of the Tongue" about Elizabeth Bishop, that Bart kindly gave me.

I would be happy to share right away as I am curious about your take.  I didn't find I had much further insight about the poem.  I think the group addressed her "finical" (fastidious about detail) and discreet manner which Heaney expands on saying, "it would not have disturbed the undersong of conversations between strangers  breakfasting at a seaside hotel".   For sure, her inclination to believe in "the government of the tongue" and her "good manners" in the discipline of observation, are an accurate, and beautifully stated. truth .. but what about the poem????

On the 3rd page, the bit about the seal, the article becomes more interesting to me:  a "rhythmic heave"... one seal particularly... 

"Looking at the world of the surface, after all is not only against the better judgement of a seal; it is finally also against the better judgement of the poet.  It is not that the poet breaks faith with the observed world  (of human attachment, grandfathers, Lucky Strikes and Christmas trees) but a different estranging and fearful ement which ultimately fascinates her:  the world of mediated meaning, or a knowledge-need which sets human beings apart from seals and herrings and sets the poet in her solitude apart from her grandfather and the old man.... 

He speaks of the inner cadence which is deeply intimate with the "laden water of full tide" and continues:   "The lines inhabited by  certain profoundly true tones, which as Robert Frost put it, "were before words were, living in the cave of the mouth":  they fortify our inclination to credit promptings of our intuitive being. 

The last page contains sweeping remarks about the nature of poetry. I so enjoyed his last sentence, I the I quoted it (loosely) from in the nutshell:  "Poetry is more a threshold than a path, one constantly approached and constantly departed from, at which reader and writer undergo in their different ways the expdrience of being at the same time summoned and released.

Well... all that is well and good -- but does it enhance my appreciation of the poem?  I confess, I was a bit put off by the high-flown expression.

I added my take: 

Jessica's response:  

 Boston University Art of Poetry Video Repository website: it  was helpful to me, in which the commenting professor alluded to the leaps Bishop makes in the poem, from plain spoken to lyrical, ordinary to extraordinary. 

This very point struck me after my initial reading of the poem-- how deftly she moves from concrete to philosophical, physical to metaphysical. I am fascinated by the idea of the world of "mediated meaning" that you mentioned from the article, and the notion that the impulse to ascribe meaning sets human beings apart from animals. By virtue of the fact that we are human, we are motivated by quests of meaning and must necessarily make leaps into meaning; is the poet therefore obligated to make similar ones? 

The professor also draws attention to the language of ascent that originates in the stanza that starts with "down at the water's edge" (later in that same stanza, this language repeats, "descending"). Ultimately, the movement shifts, and we are brought into a sense of rising as the poet speaks, "above the stones, above the stone and then the world." This movement from low to high as we ascend may reflect the leap I just discussed, the shift from physical to metaphysical, ordinary to extraordinary. I think you capture this idea in the nutshell when you write that the diction and sounds "prepare an ontological dive," as the reader quite literally experiences a dive deep into territory from which one then ascends. 

I do love the way this poem immerses a reader into rich sensory detail and yet, the language is not particularly lofty. At the outset, it is rather concrete and straightforward, although it also bears an impressionistic quality. Descriptions are rendered of "what seems" and things are noted "as if": the sea swells "as if considering spilling over." The silver of "apparent" translucence. The water "seems suspended." "If you should dip your hand in...your hand would burn as if the water were a transmutation of fire." 

What fascinates me is the idea that perhaps Bishop is both pointing to the sufficiency and simultaneous inadequacy of a means of knowing that is solely based on sensory experience. If we are relying only on our senses as a means of knowing, how thoroughly do we actually know that which surrounds us? This is precisely what makes me think of Descartes and his thought experiment with the ball of wax (from Meditations) in which he concludes that our senses cannot be the sole source of our knowledge about the wax, as its sensible characteristics are unreliable. They change when melted. The wax, or any sensible object, must be perceived through the intellect. In this poem, Bishop seems to be hinting at a similar idea: knowing involves rich sensory experience as well as the intellect, as knowledge is historical, repository by nature. 

AI's summary of Jessica's comments: 

I confess I got a little lost in the high-flown language too, but I see what you mean about the seal section being more interesting.
I'm curious about your take on the poem's ending vs. your notes on 'flown' vs 'flowed'.

**

My comments about the Seamus Heaney essay  "The Government of the Tongue" about Elizabeth Bishop, that Bart kindly gave me.

I would be happy to share right away as I am curious about your take.  I didn't find I had much further insight about the poem from Heaney.    I think the group addressed her "finical" (fastidious about detail) and discreet manner which Heaney expands on saying, "it would not have disturbed the undersong of conversations between strangers  breakfasting at a seaside hotel".   For sure, her inclination to believe in "the government of the tongue" and her "good manners" in the discipline of observation, are an accurate, and beautifully stated. truth .. but what about the poem????

On the 3rd page, the bit about the seal, the article becomes more interesting to me:  a "rhythmic heave"... one seal particularly... 

"Looking at the world of the surface, after all is not only against the better judgement of a seal; it is finally also against the better judgement of the poet.  It is not that the poet breaks faith with the observed world  (of human attachment, grandfathers, Lucky Strikes and Christmas trees) but a different estranging and fearful ement which ultimately fascinates her:  the world of mediated meaning, or a knowledge-need which sets human beings apart from seals and herrings and sets the poet in her solitude apart from her grandfather and the old man.... 

He speaks of the inner cadence which is deeply intimate with the "laden water of full tide" and continues:   "The lines inhabited by  certain profoundly true tones, which as Robert Frost put it, "were before words were, living in the cave of the mouth":  they fortify our inclination to credit promptings of our intuitive being. 

The last page contains sweeping remarks about the nature of poetry. I so enjoyed his last sentence, I the I quoted it (loosely) from in the nutshell:  "Poetry is more a threshold than a path, one constantly approached and constantly departed from, at which reader and writer undergo in their different ways the expdrience of being at the same time summoned and released.

Well... all that is well and good -- but does it enhance my appreciation of the poem?  I confess, I was a bit put off by the high-flown expression.