Answer July by Emily Dickinson
Archaic Torso of Apollo by Rainer Maria Rilke
The Layers by Stanley Kunitz
Alcove by John Ashbery
The Treasure by Robinson Jeffers
Discussion:
To quote Emily Dickenson: We are creatures made only for slant truths and gradual dazzlements". The poems today brought out some beautiful sharings and comments which enhanced the understanding by shining light from multiple angles.
Dickinson: Is she asking July to answer? Asking the reader to answer July? Perhaps it doesn't matter since we all felt the intertwining of the seasons, the multiple possibilities of "Answer Thee—Me—(as in, July, do you answer as yourself)? Is that a question? Is Thee "the May", as in the verb in a conditional or subjunctive? Is "thee" another form of "me"? What does May refute? Elmer brought up that the snow and bells might refer to the snowbell tree, introduced to Europe and NE America in the late 19th century (Styrax:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Styrax )
We spent a delightful half hour discussing the possibilities -- who is the observer, and what observed? The poem is like Emily, enigmatic, but also coyly pulls our leg -- the year has the last word!
Rilke seems to pursue the theme of seeking understanding what is no longer... There are many possible archaic torsos associated with this poem. This is a particularly beautiful one replete with the fragment of the Apollo's lyre, symbol of poetry and music, and the god's role as leader of the muses. https://www.clevelandart.org/art/1924.1017. (One sees the swan, symbol of the gift of prophecy; and griffins).
However, Rilke, who a few years after serving as secretary to Rodin, was probably observing this torso in the Louvre. http://nosauvelta.blogspot.com/2014/02/rainer-maria-rilkes-archaic-torso-of.html#axzz7Z18UoGmJ
However which one, there is no head, no face, and in the spirit of what art seeks to do, Rilke
is exploring the power of the poem to restore the spirit of the work.
Judith proposed that the poem, no matter the translation, is "magnificent, but rubbish" in its pretentiousness. (Paul referred to the original in German which at least has a rhyme scheme, which helps counteract a sense of "drivel"). However, in the light of 1908, Rilke in Paris, perhaps we are given here a glimpse of the poet talking to himself, sharing with the reader an experience of viewing a piece of art that blows him away.
For a side-by-side version of the German/English these notes on translation heighten the understanding.
http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.com/2016/04/rilke-archaic-torso-of-apollo-from.html
My footnote: "Go to the limits of your longing… Let everything happen to you: beauty and terror,” Rilke urged in his Book of Hours, his poetic cadence assuring us to “just keep going,” for “nearby is the country they call life.” Rilke sensed that, as the great naturalist John Muir observed a generation earlier, “when we try to pick out anything by itself, we find it hitched to everything else in the universe.”
See interview: https://poets.org/text/archaic-torso-apollo These words seem important for the 21st century... what is happening today requires us to truly study, not avert our gaze from what might otherwise repel us. "This is so powerful that you cannot stay out of it."
I am truly grateful for the careful research so many shared. Carolyn shared a slant reference to the Aristotelian dictum, "Art is an imitation of nature" calling on the power of marble to cast an inner light.
Elaine brought up Rodin and his advice to observe carefully before attempting to produce any work of art, and how inert matter must be transformed so that it comes alive spiritually; Rose-Marie brought up the pedantry of assumptions about perfection, and how this poem, by aiming to imitate the excellence of the sculpture's craft, perhaps because it is imperfect, demands our imagination to fully appreciate it.
The discussion spent some time on the last two lines: "for here, there is no place/that does not see you."
This gaze as if like a streetlamp inside this headless statue is all powerful. The two "otherwise" confirm:
It requires you to turn to look inside yourself!
The "wake up call" of the last line thus, continues to confirm what is important "to see".
Kunitz: He served twice as National Poet Laureate 1974 to 1976, when the position was called Consultant in Poetry, and from 2000 to 2001. We joked about the problem of excluding a poet like Robinson Jeffers because he did not have this position, understanding, honors are not guarantees of excellence!
In the Layers, the theme of delving beyond surface is continued. Judith brought up the power of the words
like struggle, dwindling, wheel, heavy wings, manic dust, nimbus-clouded-- indeed, they don't depend on
sound, but "the meatiness of their meaning."
And yet the language is deceptively simple, and we understand immediately, and relate to, how easy it is
to stray from who we are.
There are slant biblical references (the tribe scattered; pillar of cloud by day (fire by night), but as Bernie put it,, "no observable flourish of language-- just a welcome subtle directness."
We enjoyed the sublime paradoxical image of "feast of losses." And stone (on the road) at a distance from
precious -- although, like Jeffers later, we understand the stumbling on the ordinary stone, is also treasure.
As for nimbus-clouded... in art, the radiant halo comes to mind... and of course, for weather, nimbus means rainstorm. One needs to delve into the layers to understand!
He noted his longevity--101 years old when he passed on... and how this poem, written in his late 70s was to conclude 60 years of poetry.
This is the kind of poem that uplifts, and one trusts that the voice of the poet has indeed learned from
experience as he addresses aging, loss, and the constant of change. Maura brought up the expression,
"the morning tells the day" which her grandmother would say-- holding a newborn baby, ( for each of her 18 grandchildren) imagining how it already contains the "who it is" and how this will manifest.
Ashbery: Well... a little surrealism adds to the lens of how to understand how to live in the actual "litter" we have created with plastics, and the effects we have on our planet with global warming... our inability to create harmonious conditions in cities for all... We loved the Ashbery brought up the word, "mugwump"--
and at least three different definitions were shared. As Judith put it, it is a marriage of one side of the family being the "mugs" and on the other side of the fence, the "jumps", the wivery-quivery of not making up one's mind... Other terms were opportunist, but wiki will tell you "apolitical" which seems to be contradictory.
We picked up on "as though they mattered" -- and this idea of having an "alcove" for others (who have caught the spirit).
Unlike the straight edge of a wall, an alcove, which comes for the arabic for "vault" is a recess...
And that's where you hear the breathing.
Yes, terrible incident happen daily.
What gets us around obstacles is the alcove... however you want to define it.
Jeffers: The poem starts BIG, and we thought of the pictures we have seen from the new Webb Telescope! And then, the small man... stumbling on the amazing "inexhaustible treasure". In Jewish mysticism, Bernie noted, it is believed that God put shards of himself in the creation. To fully understand the complexity of this thinking see this article: https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/32246?lang=bi
Rose Marie was intrigued by the word, "Inhumanism" in the footnote and shared this: Robinson Jeffers Review- Editors Note"From Jeffers’s viewpoint, all existence, even that of inanimate forms, is driven by an ancient and vast energy transformation system which, on our planet, has resulted in life, and ultimately in the life of human beings. All parts of the system are connected, and none is more important than any other. Furthermore, all of it is destined to cease to exist, not just the living beings, but the universe itself. All of this is divine, all of it God, including ourselves, shards of divinity. Jeffers adds as a further explanation of our human role: we can recognize and honor our share of this immense universe, but only if we shed the human concern with personal self-centeredness, which results in frustration, heartbreak, greed, and war.
from The Legat Saga